Rick Hess:Arne, some readers may not know much about your efforts since you served as secretary of education for President Obama. Can you talk a bit about what you’re focused on and what drew you to that work?
Arne Duncan:Since 2016, my primary focus has been on reducing gun violence in Chicago. I have helped develop and lead an organization called Chicago CRED that engages with individuals at extreme risk of shooting someone or being shot and helps give them a pathway out of the streets and into the legal economy. This very much came from a place of personal pain. As a teenager, I used to play basketball on the south and west sides, and some of the older guys would protect me and give me safe passage—and I started losing some of them to gun violence. As CEO of the Chicago public schools, I lost a student to gun violence on average every two weeks. As secretary of education, my worst day ever was Sandy Hook, and when I returned to Chicago in 2016, gun violence was worse than I had ever seen it. I just could not stand by and do nothing. Everything else felt secondary.
Hess:What’s that work involve, and what have you learned from it?
Duncan:I work with hundreds of mostly young men, but also many women, to help them change their lives. Most of them grew up in street life, where guns, drugs, and the illegal economy were the only paths open for them. They never had the chance to live normally. We’re trying to give them an opportunity to thrive by supplying them with a life coach, trauma treatment, education, and job training. Throughout this work, I have learned that we have overlooked so much talent. These men and women are leaders, they are creative, and they are capable of anything.
Hess:When it comes to school safety, what kinds of solutions do you think have the most promise?
Duncan:If you’re talking about the kind of mass shootings that have happened in places like Sandy Hook and Parkland, I am 100 percent in favor of laws that reduce access to guns—especially assault weapons. If you’re talking about in-school violence that mostly does not include guns, I would like to see less focus on police and more reliance on people with trust and respect who can intervene before disputes escalate. Many people who work for Chicago CRED have criminal backgrounds that prevent them from working in schools, but they have a lot to offer to young people. They understand their lives because they have lived it. They can earn their trust in ways that people who have not lived the street life never can. They can de-escalate situations brilliantly. They don’t talk down to students who are in situations similar to the ones they were in growing up. And the young people see themselves in our guys and think,if they can do it, so can I. They’re just this huge untapped resource to help reduce gun violence, but they’re not in a position to do that because of employment barriers. We need to change that.
Hess:Looking back, what’s the most important lesson you think you learned during your time in Washington as secretary of education?
Duncan:Listening is an underrated skill. If you want to be helpful to people, you really have to listen to them and let them know they have been heard. Once you do that, you can have a better dialogue. The experience also affirmed that there is no one-size-fits-all solution. I knew this as a district leader in Chicago, but traveling around the country and seeing schools all across America reinforced it. The job is not about telling people what to do. It’s about giving them the support and opportunity to succeed.
Hess:I’m curious if there’s a time or issue during your tenure as secretary where you wish you could’ve had a do-over?
Duncan:I think the teacher-evaluation issue was one that I had hoped we could make more progress on, but teachers just felt beaten up over it. We had the union leaders on board, but they couldn’t convince their members that this would help them and strengthen their profession.
Hess:What do you think people get wrong about Obama’s education record?
Duncan:There’s a false narrative that we forced change upon states and districts, but we really didn’t. We were more about carrots than sticks. We tried to change the incentive structure to do the right thing—raise standards, provide some educational options to people, strengthen the teaching profession, and turn around struggling schools.
Hess:What do you make of the education landscape today?
Duncan:The landscape is mixed. Reform has taken a backseat in the Covid era, and now, we’re just trying to catch up. With the Covid-relief funds drying up, there are new fiscal challenges for school districts and states. I’d like to see us shift our focus onto things like expanded early learning, high school rigor, and postsecondary access. I’d like to see us foster more tolerance and lessen tension over issues like race, gender, and academic freedom.
Hess:You mention “high school rigor,” which is something that gets less attention than it deserves. What do you have in mind?
Duncan:More AP classes. More opportunities for college-level courses. More postsecondary training. Basically, our education system ought to respond to the students and what they are asking for—and what they’re ready for. Many of them are ready for a bigger challenge even in high school. It may sound radical, but an education system ought to help every student go as far as they can and as far as they want. Most schools aren’t built like that.
Hess:During your tenure in Washington, you had some well-publicized tensions with the teachers unions. What do you think of the role the unions are playing today?
Duncan:At best, unions are effective advocates for teaching and learning. I don’t see them standing in the way of change today, but I also don’t see a lot of people trying to drive change. Instead, school systems are just trying to keep their heads above water—and it’s hard to drive change in that environment.
Hess:Your point here about leaders “just trying to keep their heads above water” reminds me of adiscussionyou and I had last year about a dearth of leadership in education today. What could change that?
Duncan:I think the issue will come back around again. Someone will issue a new report showing that we are still at risk of falling behind in the technology race or something else. The large segment of silent parents who are not interested in the culture wars but just want their kids to get a good education will find a new voice. It’s inevitable that some great new learning approaches will emerge, and people will start asking,why can’t all kids have that?I have faith that people will demand more of their schools.
Hess:What are the biggest changes you see since your time as secretary?
Duncan:Enrollment declines in some big cities like my hometown of Chicago have real consequences. It seems that some parents are giving up on the system. Also, it’s less of a front-burner issue than it was when I was in Washington. Another shift is the emergence of culture wars, which are distracting and counterproductive. There’s a difference between education as a voting issue and education as a political football. It should unite us—not divide us.
Hess:Obviously, there are lots of clickbait culture warriors. But there are also more serious figures on left and right who’d argue that these cultural debates aren’t a distraction but a reflection of fundamental tensions. What’s your take for those navigating all this?
Duncan:Parents and teachers can have an honest discussion about when and how to introduce a topic like sex education into schools, but when it devolves into banning books by Toni Morrison orTo Kill a Mockingbird, it seems we have lost sight of the goal—to show our children the truth about ourselves and our history. Schools should be safe places for everyone—regardless of race, gender identity, immigrant status, etc.
Hess:Is it still possible for Democrats and Republicans to find common ground on education?
Duncan:As chair of the Hunt Institute, I work closely with the former Republican governor of New Mexico, Susana Martinez. In addition, I have always gotten along with my predecessor as education secretary, Margaret Spellings. I have always worked closely with governors on both sides of the aisle. It’s the culture warriors who want to do things like ban books who are driving us apart. But most of that is hype. I have a lot of faith in parents and teachers to stand up to the extremists when it comes to the education of their children.
Hess:OK, last question. As you and I’ve discussed before, it feels like civic leaders and public officials are less focused on school improvement than they were a decade ago. What do you think it will take for that dynamic to change?
Duncan:The truth always helps. Let’s just get back to telling the truth about our kids and our schools—the progress, the outcomes, the good, the bad, and the ugly—and trust that people will get beyond their differences and do the right thing for their kids.
